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Where is the ACLU?
Posted By katie allison granju
If the adults - mothers and fathers - in this polygamist, FLDS sect are encouraging sexual activity by teenage girls with adult men as part of their religious practice (as it appears they almost certainly are), this is criminally abusive. It needs to be stopped.
The individual men and women who have played a role in this abuse need to be individually prosecuted. Their other, younger children should be put into state custody. I cannot express strongly enough how much I believe the state needs to take a strong, unequivocal stance in going after any of these individual adults in this group who have committed crimes against children in the name of religion.
However, I am increasingly disturbed by the way the state of Texas is handling this matter. The wholesale rounding up and de facto incarceration of hundreds of women and children - none of whom have been individually accused of any crime - is very troublesome.
And the matter moves to a whole new level of disturbing in my mind with word that the state now plans to impose across-the-board DNA testing on these women and children, without parental consent (meaning, the mothers have no choice in the matter), after which ALL THE CHILDREN, including nursing babies and toddlers, will immediately be separated from their mothers.
And in response to criticism over this despicable plan, the judge who is allowing it had only this to say: “But every day in this country, we have mothers who go back to work after six weeks of maternity leave.”
Look, precipitously separating a young child - particularly a nursing baby - from her mother is in itself abusive. So the justification for doing it by the state better be that that particular child is at risk of imminent, provable harm from that particular parent. The standard should be very, very high when making such a radical decision.
This is truly beginning to smack of religious persecution, especially when you compare the treatment of these families with the way children are routinely left in abusive and severely neglectful home environments all over this country by child protective services workers - all in the name of family preservation.
The ACLU needs to be all over this.
And let me say yet again that I am in favor of a thorough, aggressive and prosecutorial approach to investigating the claims of sexual abuse of teenage girls coming out of these polygamist groups. Any individual adult involved in such crimes should go to jail and lose his or her right to parent any other children.
But what’s happening in Texas is wrong.
Apr 22nd, 2008
The ACLU does not have a history of caring much to protect the constitutional rights of Christians…
They’re too busy supporting NAMBLA.
I have to agree with the judge and the way Texas is handling it. I feel badly for the children, I feel badly for the mothers, but I’m far more concerned that the men will flee with as many women and children as they can to the farthest corners of the country in an effort to avoid prosecution.
Texas is stuck between a rock and a hard place, but is doing the best it can for the children under the circumstances.
(btw, I found this post via InstaPundit)
Just a thought experiment. Would the Feds invade/arrest/prosecute a group of Muslim preachers for polygamy? Would the ACLU leap to their defense of Muslim polygamists?
Let us be thankful that Janet Reno is not in charge.
I am appalled that these children are being put in foster care. I don’t trust foster care very much.
Is the government doing this in order to gear up for the coming fight against Muslims and their polygamy? Britain is having a problem with the Muslims claiming benefits (welfare) for their multiple families.
Some real simple googling would have shown you numerous stories such as this:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/20/polygamy.sect/
The ACLU said it had a representative at the court hearing and the organization was concerned about human rights violations.
“While we acknowledge that Judge Walther’s task may be unprecedented in Texas judicial history, we question whether the current proceedings adequately protect the fundamental rights of the mothers and children,” Terri Burke, executive director of the ACLU of Texas, said in a written statement.
“As this situation continues to unfold, we are concerned that the constitutional rights that all Americans rely upon and cherish — that we are secure in our homes, that we may worship as we please and hold our places of worship sacred, and that we may be with our children absent evidence of imminent danger — have been threatened,” Burke said.
The group’s courtroom observer, Lisa Graybill, added: “We recognize that this balancing act is difficult, but we are concerned that government may not be complying with the Constitution or the laws of Texas in the execution of its mandate, from how the raids were conducted to whether the current process protects basic rights.”
A little more research would have found stories such as this:
http://www.aclu.org/religion/frb/16163prs19990716.html
I’m aware that the ACLU has issued several statements.
I am hopeful they will follow-up with very public action, as they often do in other high profile cases. That was my point.
-kag
The ACLU is not going to come to the defense of this organization. Nobody is.
The allegations of child sexual abuse wielded by the state of Texas are meant to prevent regular Americans from having any sympathy for these people and to give the judges the leeway they need to implement the destruction of this “so-called” religion.
When we hear that there are “allegations” of abuse, of course, everyone just sits back and does nothing, because maybe there is abuse, so we should suspend normal Constitutional rights that Americans enjoy until we find that there isn’t sexual abuse going on. If you try to defend these people, aren’t you somehow guilty by associating yourself with reprobates? Not legally guilty, but in the eyes of your fellow employers, former friends, and especially in the suspicions of the governemnt tax authorities?
That’s quite an interesting way to deprive people of their liberties, isn’t it?
After all, we shouldn’t give child abusers rights, should we? Those once accused shouldn’t be shielded by a mere Constitution, should they? Until they can prove their innocence through DNA tests, we should just suspend their rights. Because after all, they might be guilty, and what’s the harm really in temporarily suspending the Constitution? Arent’ the children more important than some silly rights?
Really, what’s the harm?
Freedom of religiion is a nice sounding right, but we should suspend it anytime the government accuses anyone of suspected child abuse based on alleged telephone calls from random people in Colorado. That right there is enough evidence, as I see it, to suspend the Constitution and take these kids away from their parents. If it was organized sexual abuse, like they do it in the Catholic church, that would be one thing, but this is disorganized alleged child abuse. We should suspend the Constitution in this case.
You know, temporarily. Just until those parents can prove that they aren’t child molesters. Once they can do that, then maybe we give them their kids back now that we’ve destroyed their way of life.
But we shouldn’t let some old crinkley document sitting in a dusty basement in Washington DC stand in the way of protecting these kids from allegations of abuse levelled by an anonymous black Colorado woman.
Should we?
“I am in favor of a thorough, aggressive and prosecutorial approach to investigating the claims of sexual abuse of teenage girls coming out of these polygamist groups”
How, exactly, when the victims have been cowed into silence and the parents are actively obstructing the investigation?
The bigger mystery here is why FLDS would pick a place under the government microscope like Eldorado, with Texas’ unusually restrictive parental consent laws to create this tyoe of settlement.
I am sorry but to take an exclusively individualistic perspective ignores so many aspects of this case, such as the formation of a sick society, where older men prey on adolescent females who are psychologically unprepared to defend themselves due to religious and communal conditioning. It should also be pointed out that much of the activity of this commune is illegal. The State of Texas is meeting its legal obligations by investigating this case.
The same stance should be taken with Muslims, because polygamy is illegal in the USA. The question of the religious practice of polygamy was settled by the Supreme Court against Mormon practitioners. That decision applies as much to Muslims as it does anyone else.
Finally, this group is Mormon, not Christian. They are simply following the doctrinal stances of the early Mormons.
I’m not happy with it either… however given the family relationships and the fact that some kids do not even know precisely who their mothers (and fathers??) are, that there are siblings, half siblings, cousins, sister-wives, etc and these people as a group are not coming clean about who is who, waiting on genetic testing seems to be the only answer. And even that may not fully answer these questions.
The FLDS should have picked a state like South Carolina. The age of consent here is 16. It is not a crime for adults to have sex with 16 year olds. Irish Travelers–another strange group–have settled here partially for that reason.
First, correction to Harry above: Harry, no these people are not Mormons. Mormon is a word that has acquired distinct meaning (it is trademarked even) which is the Salt Lake City headquartered church and people. The group in Texas has nothing to do with the Salt Lake based church and visa versa.
Further, the Salt Lake based church has 15 leaders that set doctrine world-wide. It is not like the evangelicals or Baptists that have as many leaders and doctrinal positions as there are ministers with a Bible. Therefore, there is no doctrinal spectral spread in the LDS church. If anyone parts with the 15 leaders in Salt Lake, they cease to be Mormon/LDS, If they part with the 15 leaders on the doctrine of polygamy (i.e. want to practice polygamy) they are excommunicated. Harry, if you didn’t know this, you need to get more informed. If you did know this, you need to stop willfully speaking evil about Mormons.
And, btw, the Salt Lake based Mormons’ church name is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (also trademarked) and has been that name since 1838, showing (again) that they are and always have been Christian. Any anyone that says differently has either altered the meaning of the word Christian to proportions that don’t make any sense, or are simply repeating a bigoted lie to de-legitimatize and de-humanize Mormons.
Regarding the topic of this post: why isn’t anyone concerned that for some bizzar reason the Judge asked the Salt Lake based LDS church if they would “monitor” the kids prayers? Ignoring the many illogical issues about asking the LDS to monitor people that don’t agree with the LDS. How on earth did the Judge think that making the LDS Church an agent of the court was *not* excessive entanglement, and under Lemon a violation of the constitution? And where was the ACLU when the court made this unconstitutional request? How does a court ask one church to monitor a distinct and completely different other church?
This is all highly troubling. Texas is showing its wierd side here, and I even live in Dallas.
Not so long ago in this country, it was common for young women who achieved puberty and who desired to start a family (teens younger than eighteen) to wed older men. This was considered natural and quite acceptable. What has changed since then? Were many of our great-great-grandfathers pedophiles worthy of incarceration? Society has changed its laws but not the essential realities of being human. In this country alone, over 400,000 unwed underage teenagers become single mothers each year. Is society better off for prohibiting such young women from marrying a man of their choosing (old or young) with parental consent and beginning a family? Shouldn’t the larger issues of personal choice and parental consent be the overriding considerations for such matters?
The raid on the FLDS compound clearly raises constitutional issues concerning the freedom of personal religious worship for U.S. citizens. It should also give us pause to question how we have changed the laws in modern times concerning the age of consent for marriage. I’m all for stopping individuals from abusing the rights of teens by forcing them into unwanted marriages. But, I don’t see the harm in allowing teens who have reached puberty to marry responsible older persons with the consent of their parents. Modern Federal and State laws have become far too intrusive on freedoms that should otherwise be allowed under the U.S. Constitution. Rather than persecute a religious sect that disagrees with the modern norms of American society, perhaps it is time to rethink the rationale for the unnecessarily restrictive laws that we have enacted and to return to an era of greater freedom.
We need honest answers to many difficult questions like: What is so inherently wrong about an older man marrying a young teenage woman who has reached child-bearing age, who wishes to be married to him, and who has her parents’ consent? Most parents would not consent to such unions unless the man, no matter what age he is, has the means to support their daughter. For that matter, what is so inherently wrong about plural marriage? As long as a man properly supports his multiple wives and the women involved do not object, why should society prohibit these unions? How does allowing such unions damage society? Unless we can demonstrate an over-riding societal risk in allowing certain religious practices, I fail to see why society should have the right to prohibit them just because the majority of Americans do not agree with them.
In the State of Texas, an “expert” witness claimed that 14 year old women are not mature enough to engage in sex and this conclusion was used to justify taking over 400 children from their mothers. If that conclusion is true, then many of our great-great-grandmothers must have been awful mothers who were far too immature to start a family. If that is true, then we have about 30 percent of young women in that category who don’t seem to agree with this assessment and are having sex anyway. I would not want my own 14 year old daughter to engage in premarital sexual activity and/or get married for a number of reasons, but her maturity level isn’t one of them. However, if my 14 year old secretly decided to have sex, get pregnant, and keep her baby, no Child Protective Services personnel would be knocking down my door to take the baby away unless the baby was being physically or sexually abused. In the State of Texas, children are being forcibly taken from 14 year old and older FLDS women who decided to have sex, get pregnant, and keep their babies simply because their religion condones the practice of young teenage women getting married and starting their families (they don’t condone premarital sex for anyone). Why is the choice of the FLDS women more onerous then what my non-FLDS 14 year old daughter might choose? Why does society have the right to trump the implementation of religious practices that do no harm to society just because the majority doesn’t agree with them? Indeed, where is the ACLU when real issues concerning the freedom of American citizens are being threatened?
There are a lot of concerns hers and few are talking about the probability the initial call was faked; that the kids are being spread all over the place with no contact with anything they knew before and now they’re working on taking babies away from their nursing mothers.
I agree with your assessments; the individual problems needed to be addressed immediately. The rest could have been addressed with case workers going there, not breaking up the whole group. Let the case worker go and actually see what the place is like, rather than try to find out after a full dissection.
http://politicalinquirer.com/2008/04/18/350-lawyers-a-weapon-of-mass-pyschosis/
Has anyone in the public heard, or seen a copy of the transcript of, the telephone call that supposedly caused this to happen? Has the person who supposedly called yet been brought forth? All of this hangs on an anonymous phone call. Has anyone documented where the phone call originated from? It would seem that constitutional abuse is just rampant here.
“Why is the choice of the FLDS women more onerous then what my non-FLDS 14 year old daughter might choose? ”
Because it’s not a choice for them. It’s not like they get to date, or even flirt, and then choose which 50+-year-old-man they’re going to be with. Marriages are assigned by leaders, in this case, mostly Warren Jeffs before he was arrested, and wives can be transferred to other men if they fall out of favor (it is not uncommon for a woman to be transferred to several different men over the course of her child-bearing years, which is why the DNA sweep is necessary). Women are essentially chattel in the FLDS.
Polygamy, especially as practiced by the FLDS, is about one thing: access to a large number of women for purposes of sexual variety. It seems obvious that many posting here have not read “Under the Banner of Heaven” by Jon Krakauer. It is absolutely essential reading for understanding what has been going on in the FLDS. This is not a question of religious freedom. The Texas case is about abuse of children, period. Yes, taking nursing babies away from their mothers is awful. Instead of blaming the authorities, folks should be blaming the parents who allowed their children to be brought up in this hellish environment. Where is the “personal responsibility” crowd now?
Also, it is a real stretch to call the FLDS “Christian”. People are allowed to call themselves whatever they want, but in the FLDS, whether or not you get into heaven is determined by Warren Jeffs, not your faith in Christ. I also think that most people would be shocked by the differences between Catholic/Protestant views of the afterlife and Mormon views of the afterlife. As an agnostic, I have no dog in this hunt but those who see the Texas raids as just a hop, skip and jump away from the jack-booted thugs busting down the door of their local megachurch are quite in the dark as far as excommunicated Mormons go.
The FLDS came to Texas from Utah, in part to escape potential prosecution for crimes that might have come to light and in part because at the time Texas law allowed marriages of 14 year old girls with parental permission. (Texas’ law has since been changed.) In Utah the AG had kind of a tacit deal with them– he wouldn’t prosecute them for bigamy if they wouldn’t marry underage girls. Their response to this was to move to Texas.
This group is not a group of consenting adults practicing free love in a hippie commune and raising their kids together. That’s their public image. In reality they are an oppressive cult that traps their young girls and forces them to marry young against their will, ejects their excess teenage boys to go live on the streets, etc. They are inbreeding themselves to create a sort of “master race”, so much so that even when a large portion of their children suffer from a debilitating genetic disease, they won’t quit inbreeding. Regardless of what you think about polygamy among consenting adults, what they do to some of their children is a crime.
I recommend that anyone who wants to know more about the FLDS than their PR should read “Escape” by Carolyn Jessop. She tells part of the story of her flight from the FLDS (and how they pursued her) here:
http://fora.tv/2007/12/05/Carolyn_Jessop_on_her_Escape_from_the_FLDS
1. Prank call police saying that childredn are being abused at your neighbor’s house. 2. Watch the SWAT team break down the door. 3. Watch your neighbor’s kid being hauled off to foster care “Just as a precautionary measure until after the trial in 2014, or they reach 18, whichever comes first”
A few points:
1. Jon Krakauer, in his book “Under the Banner of Heaven”, is generally regarded as fairly accurate on his discussions of the polygamist sects, and (un)fairly sloppy bordering on fictional when he discusses and analyzes Mormon history. But he is, after all, about selling books, not about accurate history. A much more accurate and scholarly book on Mormon history is Bushman’s “Rough Stone Rolling”, which has all facts without the pop-culture historical interpretation that Krakauer attempts.
2. If America is scandalized by 14, 15, or 16 year olds being pregnant, why aren’t the state troopers and CPS raiding the inner-city black neighborhoods and rounding up every young girl there? I am saying this not to condemn the inner-city blacks - but to point out how inconsistent the state’s reasons are for their actions at the Texas compound. Or are we only scandalized when it is a religious group, but couldn’t care less if 14 or even 13 year olds are pregnant in the inner-city.
3. Further inconsistency: if a 14 year old girl is deemed by the state to possibly be old enough and mature enough to decide that she can’t tell her parents she’s going to have an abortion because her dad might beat her, is the state prepared to also deem the 14 year old girl from the compound to be old enough and mature enough to decide that she doesn’t want state protection, and that she’ll be OK back home at the compound?
Or are 14 year olds only recognized by the state as mature enough to have an abortion, but not mature enough to say “I want to go back to my family, and my life at the compound”? And if so, on what basis does the state make the distinction?
Huge, huge constitutional issues presented here.
Reading books by disgruntled ex-FLDS women and supposed non-FLDS “experts” who have an ax to grind is hardly objective. Who gets to determine if the women are, in fact, being forced into marriages? If you believe that they have been brain-washed and the women involved don’t agree with this assessment, does society have the right to punish the mothers because society “believes” that they are being forced into these marriages? Do the rights and opinions of these women matter? If we disregard them, on what basis are we doing so? Where does the Constitution grant society such rights? If we have legitimate complaints from FLDS women of forced marriages, we do have the legal right to act. However, as far as I know, the Texas FLDS debacle doesn’t include any such verified complaints from supposed “victims.” Because of their beliefs, the FLDS women probably do not consider themselves as victims of abuse by older authoritarian men. If these women are happy with their lives, why does society have the right to destroy their families and ruin their happiness? These are legitimate questions that we can’t afford to disregard, if we value our Constitutional freedoms.
Why haven’t the supposedly respectable L.D.S. been trying harder to put the F. Latter Day Saints out of business?
This should teach those polygamists a lesson. Donate to the democrats and the aclu will protect you.
The difference between true love and child molesting is the (D) next to your name.
The ACLU is not, and never was, a civil rights advocacy organization. It was created to push the communist agenda onto American society through the courts system. (Which is one reason why Supreme Court appointees are so critical).
It doesn’t take a constitutional scholar to see that taking DNA samples from the compound members against their will is a clear violatiuon of their 4th Amendment rights.
Where is the ACLU? They’re making sure that the detainees at GITMO have a choice of Pop-Tarts with their breakfast.
Just listen to your fellow Americans:
“I am far more concerned that the men will flee with as many women and children as they can to the farthest corners of the country in an effort to avoid prosecution.” - I would remind this commenter that no only one person, who can prove he hasn’t been to the Texas compound in years, has been charged with anything.
“.. ACLU said it had a representative at the court hearing and the organization was concerned about human rights violations.” - Well, as long as the ACLU is concerned, everyone can just move along. Nothing to see here, folks.
” … Finally, this group is Mormon, not Christian. They are simply following the doctrinal stances of the early Mormons.” - So fuck them. They have no rights. Since they’re not Christians, who cares whether they are trampled on.
“… Because it’s not a choice for them. It’s not like they get to date, or even flirt, and then choose which 50+-year-old-man they’re going to be with.” - Yes, since FLDS kids don’t have the choice to be skanks and sluts, let’s absolutely round up these weirdos and take their kids from them. While we’re at it, those Amish have been getting away with this sort of shit for years. I say we round those weirdos up too. They ain’t Christian! They’re just Amish.
“… the FLDS is about one thing: access to a large number of women for purposes of sexual variety.” - Have you seen this website … http://www.girlsgonewild.com/ This website seems to be about one thing: access to a large number of young girls for purposes of sexual variety.
It is stunning to me how easily Americans will support the complete suspension of due process and Constitutional Rights. What the hell did I fight in the war for?
Where’s the ACLU, you ask? Did the ACLU do anything about Janet Reno’s assault in Waco? The ACLU (1) doesn’t stand up for people who aren’t leftists or the pet victims beloved by leftists. The ACLU (2) doesn’t oppose sex with children. As if that weren’t enough, the ACLU (3) doesn’t oppose polygamy, because they don’t want to do anything to hurt their new pet victims the Muslims or their old pet victims the gays. Busting up a polygamous cult compound could set legal precedents in favor of the heteronormative nuclear Leave It to Beaver family. That would be so very very bad.
Listen to your fellow Americans:
“… The question of the religious practice of polygamy was settled by the Supreme Court against Mormon practitioners.”
Would this be the same Supreme Court that said, of black people that they are “beings of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race, either in social or political relations, and so far inferior that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect.” (Dred Scott v. Sanford)?
Would that be the same court of which you speak?
Well it’s gonna be interesting to see if the accusations against the FLDS prove out. Of course even if false I’m sure the prosecutors can ‘convince’ some of the members to testify for them.
There does seem to be a double standard in regards to whether 14-year-old teenagers have the ‘maturity’ to engage in sex. Some argue that they are ‘conditioned’ in FLDS to accept their role while 14-year-old girls in ‘normal’ society have freedom of choice. Of course that view ignores the conditioning ‘normal’ society imposes on 14-year-old girls.
On the question of why polygamy is banned is because in societies that practice polygamy has a shortage of women available for marriage. What a society doesn’t need is an excess of disaffected males who can’t find a mate because all the rich dudes have harems.
Oh, I predict that the mothers who testify against the FLDS will quickly get their children back while those that refuse to testify won’t (or at least will be threatened with such).
Regardless of the guilt or innocence of the charges this case will be a circus.
“What a society doesn’t need is an excess of disaffected males who can’t find a mate because all the rich dudes have harems.”
Well, then maybe we should create that society by rewriting the
Constitution to say that people are not, in fact, free to practice religions if those practices result in disaffected males.
Folks. Freedom of speech allows the Klu Klux Klan to have race-baiting rallies. It’s disgusting, but required. Else, we really don’t have free speech now do we?
Freedom of religion allows Jews to commit ritual infant genital mutilation of their sons at religious ceremonies that they call a “bris.” It’s sick that they cut off parts of their sons’ penises at these parties, but freedom of religion requires that we allow them to ritually mutilate their children and then serve up a kosher lunch.
I don’t see the cops busting the doors down the local Synagog.
“Oh, I predict that the mothers who testify against the FLDS will quickly get their children back while those that refuse to testify won’t …”
It will be worse than you think.
The refusal to testify correctly will be cited as evidence that some of these women are “under the spell” and “brainwashed” and thus, cannot possibly be good parents. They don’t really have “freedom” because if the did, they’d testify correctly.
Up front, the FLDS are weird and out to lunch….however, Texas will rue the day they stepped into this one. So, what do we have? A judge, who based on an “anonomous” call, issues warrants that allow law enforcement (heavily armed against zero resistance) to invade a religous cults compound, round up 450+ children, seperate mothers, again wholesale, the list goes on. Then, once they don’t find the abused caller (because it was a prank call from a woman in Colorado) they have to cover their butts and do anything they can to justify the raid. Then, of course, the same judge who issued the warrant hears the case which she can then use to cover her own incompetence.
Allow me to make one prediction…this whole thing will blow up in Texas’ face. The AG’s in Utah and Arizona have been burned many a time before…Texas is going to get scorched.
What I want to see is for the CPS to tell the number of these children who have been abused and/or become pregnant after a year in CPS Foster care.
Of course no one will EVER see those numbers.
Fewer of the children would have been abused had CPS left the FLDS alone!!
Please think for a minute. These children have not watched TV they have no conseption of MODERN society. They will be lambs to the slaughter. But never fear CPS will make sure NO ONE EVER HEARS WHAT HAPPENEDS.
“On the question of why polygamy is banned is because in societies that practice polygamy has a shortage of women available for marriage. What a society doesn’t need is an excess of disaffected males who can’t find a mate because all the rich dudes have harems.”
What percentage of women in America do you really think would willingly participate in a polygamous marriage relationship? Based on what I have experienced and seen, this is probably less than one percent. Since we already have more women than men in American society, I doubt that this would affect the availability of women for single men, so this is hardly a good reason for a ban on polygamy. The real reason is that, back in the nineteenth century, the Mormons dared to be different and the “good” Americans from the other dominant Christian churches were looking for a way to destroy the new, upstart church and confiscate their property. The creation of this ban was clearly unconstitutional back then and nothing has changed since then to demonstrate that Polygamy is inherently damaging to American society. How long will Americans continue to tolerate such infringements on Constitutional rights before they decide to fully implement the language of the U.S. Constitution? Do individual Americans really have the right to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?” Do they really have the right to practice religious beliefs that don’t infringe upon the rights of others without the interference of Federal and State governments? In the case of the Texas FLDS women, it appears that the the answer to these two questions is a resounding “NO!” We should all be ashamed and outraged!
“Why haven’t the supposedly respectable L.D.S. been trying harder to put the F. Latter Day Saints out of business?”
How are we supposed to do that? We already excommunicate any member who contracts a polygamous marriage. Can you think of anything else that would not involve the Church crossing the line from the ecclesiastical to the secular?
And I doubt anyone here misses the significance of the “supposedly” in your question. You don’t think *any* Mormons are really respectable, do you?
“is generally regarded as fairly accurate on his discussions of the polygamist sects, and (un)fairly sloppy bordering on fictional when he discusses and analyzes Mormon history.”
Hmm, we seem to be discussing a polygamist sect here, do we not? If so, I’ll take your bullet point as an endorsement of reading Under the Banner of Heaven as a tool to greater understanding of this issue. I’d take issue with your unqualified statement “generally regarded as” but that’s beyond the scope of this post.
“Yes, since FLDS kids don’t have the choice to be skanks and sluts”
Because everyone knows that dating and flirting is EXACTLY THE SAME THING as being “skanks” and “sluts”. I assume you are an advocate of arranged marriages then?
“This website seems to be about one thing: access to a large number of young girls for purposes of sexual variety.”
It seems to me there’s a world of difference between consenting adults agreeing to be nude on video and websites and 14-year-old girls being forced into wife-swapping with a bunch of old guys. But that’s just me. Oh, please don’t point out how the GGW guy got sued cause some underage girls appeared in one of his videos. It doesn’t exactly strengthen your point.
Leave it to the wingnuts to look at a brutal, repressive cult engaging in de facto sex slavery and institutionalized pedophilia, led by a convicted rapist and svengali-like megalomaniac and somehow link it to all the black girls in the inner cities having babies and parental consent laws.
As for everyone predicting that this will blow up in the TX authorities faces (interesting that this happened in a state run by Republicans, although I’m sure this whole raid was the work of a few unelected “fascist liberals”), the only thing that’s going to blow up in anyone’s faces are those that tacitly enabled this horror show to go on for years under the guise of “religious freedom”.
Those who control the gold rule. However, those who control the knowledge also rule.
I was raised by good and decent and honest parents to be a good and decent and honest person. I endured the public school systems (dad was military, so we moved around a lot) and I was exposed to everything most other people read/saw/watched/whatever. That said, I was able to make educated choices in my life.
These kids are isolated. The don’t know a thing about the outside world except what they are told by those in authority. Upon what can we base their abilities to make good choices in their lives? A person may be allowed to say “no,” but do any of them know of the vast opportunities that await them in this world?
In my opinion, those children have been denied one of their civil rights, and that is a well-rounded education; one that would provide them the essential knowledge that would allow them the ability to make educated choices in their lives.
That’s my problem with this and similar groups.
“It seems to me there’s a world of difference between consenting adults agreeing to be nude on video and websites and 14-year-old girls being forced into wife-swapping with a bunch of old guys.”
There is a world difference. Here it is: You don’t seem to mind a girl who is 17 years 365 days old flashing her tits to any man who will pay to watch, while you think it is somehow wrong for people to want to protect a girl who is 17 years 364 days old from the society you and your ilk have created.
May I suggest madam, that you are the one who is whacked.
Some of us don’t want our daughters whored out by the society you protect with your commentary. We prefer not to have them exposed to your Abercrombie & Fitch skankvertising, American Apparel stwhores, Girls Gone Wild peepshows on CBS and Bill Clinton’s idea of a cigar humidor.
That you feel the need to crush religions (or, as you call them, cults) who try to protect their children from the society you walk freely in without a care in the world just demonstrates how easy it is for evil to triumph when good men merely do nothing.
These are great points, Katie.
Am I the only one who is quizzical as to the call to police from “Sarah”, who cannot be found or even identified?
Having this occur near the 15th anniversary of the government-induced conflagration at Waco gives me a feeling of deja vu.
These kids have never watched MTV, don’t know who Madonna or Eminem is, and have never been exposed to alcohol, tobacco, or drugs, so the government decides that they need to be rescued.
When Federal and State governments decide to control what parents and religious groups are allowed to believe and teach their children, they step over the line in the sand drawn by the U.S. Constitution.
Children often live within a limited paradigm created by their parents and their families. They aren’t expected to have the exact same rights as adults, because society recognizes the right of parents to control the environment of their children. When parents/groups decide that the societal norms are unacceptable to them and choose to isolate themselves and their families from these “norms,” does society have the right to force these parents/groups to expose their children to the very influences that they have decided to reject? I don’t think so.
Also, those who claim that young FLDS women are being “forced” to live the teachings of the FLDS church regarding marriage, what proof do you have that this is true? The interviews of the Texas FLDS women that I have seen and read simply don’t support this conclusion. Most of them believe what their leaders and parents are teaching them and follow these teachings willingly. I realize that many Americans hate the doctrines that the FLDS people choose to live by, but that doesn’t give them the right to force the FLDS to live in accordance with their obviously “superior” principles. The U.S. Constitution gives individuals and groups the right to isolate themselves and their families from unwanted influences in the rest of society, if they choose to do so. When it comes to personal beliefs, I don’t think that many of us would want a “majority rules” approach to religion and family that is enforced by Federal and State governments.
“Have you seen this website … http://www.girlsgonewild.com/ This website seems to be about one thing: access to a large number of young girls for purposes of sexual variety”
I don’t know that I’d use that analogy in defense of the FLDS folks. THe GGW producer has already been to jail once, and is currently being prosecuted in at least two jurisdictions.
“Allow me to make one prediction…this whole thing will blow up in Texas’ face. The AG’s in Utah and Arizona have been burned many a time before…Texas is going to get scorched”
Don’t bet on it. CPS has already said several FLDS girls under the age of 16 are pregnant. Under Texas law, a 15 year old who is pregnant has, by definition, been raped. If the CPS claim is true, whether a crime has occurred is not at issue.
“The refusal to testify correctly will be cited as evidence that some of these women are “under the spell” and “brainwashed” and thus, cannot possibly be good parents”
More likely it will be cited as evidence of a criminal conspiracy.
“The U.S. Constitution gives individuals and groups the right to isolate themselves and their families from unwanted influences in the rest of society”
It does not give any individual or group the right to rape a child, regardless of beliefs.
One issue I’ve yet to see addressed: do these people have documentation such as marriage licenses and birth certificates? No? Test away, State of Texas.
its the Handmaids Tale come alive.
there is a parallel compound in canada…distressed children are regularily moved back and forth,
There are 5 pregnant 13 year old girls.
the birth records and “spiritual marriage” records are deliberately obfusticated and hidden or destroyed.
the state is doing the best it can for these poor children.
there have to be DNA test to determine who is who’s parent.
their mothers are accomplices to child abuse and child and child molestation
they absolutely deserve what they are getting
they fuckin’ chose that life
you make me sick katie granju
Seems some folks have tried and convicted the FLDS on rumors and innuendo. But, then religous bigots have condemned innumerable people on rumors and innuendo.
IF the facts prove that the sect has indeed violated the law, then let them have their day in court. Right now I’d advise against the hate-mongering.
the judge believes that the children are not safe with their mothers.
she said, “either abused or groomed to be abusers.”
there is no presumption of innocence in determination of custody for child abuse.
the FLDS adults are either perps, accomplices, or enablers.
the community was complicit.
canadian FLDS
sister wives
here’s a question for u TBlakely.
are the FLDS christians?
is warren jeffs a christian?
It appears to me that the main difference between this case and the Branch Davidians is that the Texas authorities did not go in with guns blazing.
The allegations, child abuse, and sex between older males and younger females, are very similar.
The allegations seem to be designed to minimize support for them in order to allow the State to do what they will.
Just because there have been some pretty sorid allegations does not mean they are true. The fact that this was instigated by an anonymous phone call is frightening.
I work in law enforcement and, in our agency at least, an anonymous phone call is almost worthless unless there is other evidence. But I guess that is not true everywhere.
“There is a world difference. Here it is: You don’t seem to mind a girl who is 17 years 365 days old flashing her tits to any man who will pay to watch, while you think it is somehow wrong for people to want to protect a girl who is 17 years 364 days old from the society you and your ilk have created.
May I suggest madam, that you are the one who is whacked.
Some of us don’t want our daughters whored out by the society you protect with your commentary. We prefer not to have them exposed to your Abercrombie & Fitch skankvertising, American Apparel stwhores, Girls Gone Wild peepshows on CBS and Bill Clinton’s idea of a cigar humidor.”
Who said I endorsed any of these things? And what does ANY of this have to do with the FLDS ? You really think being exposed to Abercrombie & Fitch ads are worse than child rape? Your comments seem like you’re more interested in running down a laundry list of crank nutjob complaints about the increasing “porn-ification” of society than discussing the matter at hand. The fact that you had to drag the Clenis into the argument is the tell that you must spend all day long on FreeRepublic me-tooing to every wingnut talking point pushed down your throat. The FLDS are damn close to being American Taliban, so check your facts and stay on subject, please. You sound like a damn fool running your mouth about subjects you obviously know nothing about. I think you must see the FLDS as some benevolent Christian retreat devoted to the good life rather than the brutal, repressive religious cult that it is. Are you aware that welfare fraud runs rampant in the FLDS? Where’s the outrage now?
Here’s a clue — just because someone calls themselves a Christian doesn’t mean it’s so, and when their brutal repressive cult finally gets raided it’s not the cue for you to post “AMERICAN SOCIETY HATES CHRISTIANS” screed #32.
Also, I’m not a “madam”. I’m a 38-year-old husband and father of two young boys. I’m not in advertising and I’m not in porn so I have no idea why you say I created this society. I’m also not quite sure why you seem to think that Abercrombie & Fitch ads are somehow worse than being raped & impregnated at age 12/13 by your 50-year-old father.
“The U.S. Constitution gives individuals and groups the right to isolate themselves and their families from unwanted influences in the rest of society”
“It does not give any individual or group the right to rape a child, regardless of beliefs.”
No kidding. I fully support the right of individuals and groups to isolate themselves because of their religious beliefs. That’s not what has been occurring in the FLDS. Check out this trailer for a documentary on the FLDS called “Banking on Heaven”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI6pBftroEc
There is a whole spectrum of criminal activity that has been occurring within the FLDS, and it’s been going on for years, and kudos to the state of Texas for finally putting an end to it.
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here’s a question for u TBlakely.
are the FLDS christians?
is warren jeffs a christian?>>
a) Who cares?
b) What significance is it whether or not they are “Christian?”
c) Proper grammar and spelling are your friend.
Listen to your fellow Americans:
“There is a whole spectrum of criminal activity that has been occurring within the FLDS, and it’s been going on for years, and kudos to the state of Texas for finally putting an end to it.”
Only one person so far, a person who can prove he hasn’t been to Texas for years, has been accused of anything. And he hasn’t been arrested. Huh? How come nobody’s been arrested if kids are being raped?
There are no allegations of child sexual abuse - that’s why. All you morons who are so concerned with 13 year old brides are idiots. Nobody has alleged such a thing. The police, nor the courts, have alleged that anyone at the El Dorado church was doing anything illegal.
So, all you people who think there have been allegations need to take a step back and ask yourselves this: “What allegatiions?” There are no allegations, because the government hasn’t alleged a thing.
The way the government alleges criminal activity is by indicting its citizens - either through a grand jury bill of particulars, or by a prosecutor charging an individual.
None of that has occured here. Doesn’t that give any one of you morons cause for pause?
All of these families have been torn apart on the false allegations of a single Texas law enforcement official who convinced a homeless black woman in Colorado to make a phone call.
It’s a travesty of the Constitution is what it is, and it brings shame on the judicial system of this country that lawyers and judges are complicit in this. The Texas judicial system looks like it’s peopled by a bunch of baffoons.
If kids are being raped, then I ask you, all of you … why has your government not arrested anyone? Doesn’t that strike you as just a bit odd?
If kids are being raped … how come the prosecutor in El Dorado hasn’t empaneled a grand jury?
If kids are being raped … how come these mothers aren’t in jail? How come their fathers aren’t in jail if they’re participating in the rape of their own children?
The answer is: kids aren’t being raped. The government isn’t even alleging that, and won’t, because once they indict someone, they have to show up in court and prove a case.
And they can’t. So, they’re just gonna destroy this little church using the Division of Child Welfare … the part of the government allowed to operate outside the judicial system, where people have rights.
It’s Waco all over again just without the flames.
I have to agree with aretheseamericans when he says It’s Waco all over again without the flames. It dusturbs me, of course, to think that MAYBE children are being abused there. But no one has been charged with anything, no papers have been served to anyone. How can the FBI and the state of Texas take those children from their parents without having legal documents to do so. WHERE IS THE ACLU? Where are the charges? I don’t care at all if this is a “organized religion” or a cult or even the devil’s den. These are human beings that once again are having their rights trampled on by the government. These are families that have been torn apart by hearsay. This is driving me nuts, thinking that no one has challenged the government on this. This will be an even bigger tragedy than Waco in a very short time because no one has died yet, but they sure are being tortured.
they should do some test on all of them and they should keep their children
“If there was a murder, why hasn’t anyone been charged? I’ll tell you, because there was no murder!”
Just a dead body with a knife in its back.
Nobody has been arrested because they haven’t gotten the DNA or other evidence required to determine which of the men to charge. Doh.
I agree that there should be a lot of oversight and I want the ACLU to breathe over the shoulders of all of them.
But some of you, aretheseamericans in particular, are being utterly irrational.